This very moment is magical:
An interview with Dan Millman

By Ravi Dykema

Dan Millman has influenced several generations of spiritual explorers through his best-selling novel, Way of the Peaceful Warrior (H.J. Kramer, 2000), through his ten other books, and through his lectures and workshops. (He recently headlined
the Celebration Metaphysical Fair in Denver on March 18-19.)

Now his influence is likely to reach thousands more because his first book has been made into a major motion picture, “Peaceful Warrior,” starring Nick Nolte, Scott Mechlowicz and Amy Smart. Actor Jim Carrey says in press materials for the movie, “When you hear the truth, it sounds familiar. Like seeing a reflection of something you already possess. This film is that clear and simple reflection. I enjoyed every moment.” Find more on the movie at peacefulwarrior.com, and about Dan Millman’s books and workshops at danmillman.com.

The Way of the Peaceful Warrior, although largely fictional, reads like an autobiography of Millman. It is the story of a talented young athlete's search for meaning. It expresses such universal themes as the search for meaning and purpose, the power of human will, and the recognition of the ultimate perfection of a life's unfolding.

Since the book was released in 1984, Millman has written ten more books: another novel, seven non-fiction guides, and two children's books. All his books together have sold over three million copies.

In the movie version of Peaceful Warrior, Mechlowicz plays Millman, a gifted young gymnast who moves in a reckless world of motorcycles, women and parties. When he meets the enigmatic Socrates, played by Nolte, and based on a real
person, Millman becomes first a reluctant, then an avid, student as Socrates leads him to a discovery and understanding of his own power, truth and purpose.

Here, Millman talks to Nexus publisher Ravi Dykema about what it means to be a peaceful warrior, discovering the spirituality of everyday life and finding the magic in every moment.

RD: What was it like to watch a movie of your book?

DM: It was a very different experience, depending on whether I watched it alone or in a whole theatre full of people. One of the producers, Mark Amin, and I were walking out of the theatre together after the Aloha Inspirational Film Festival in Los Angeles, and he turned to me and said “Dan, I didn't remember that there were so many funny parts.” I didn't realize it myself until I saw it as he did, with a whole audience who was cracking up at certain parts. They did a great job, and I hope it's successful, though I'm not connected financially to the film.

RD: But they must have paid you for the right to use your book.

DM: They did, about 15 years ago. It took a long time to get it going.

RD: Did you think it would never happen?

DM: Well, I didn't think one way or the other. I never thought I'd be a world champion on the trampoline, and I never thought I wouldn't. My approach to life has always been, “So far, so good; let's see what happens.” Despite all these practices of planning and visualizing positive outcomes and affirming, of writing down goals and doing meditations on them, I just kind of take life as it comes. I do the best quality I can at the moment, like right now, and let the rest take care of itself. I don't really push it, because I don't presume to know what's best for life. I don't play God.

RD: But what about being practical and pragmatic, and planning for the future? Like realizing you need to make money to send your kids to summer camp or private school or college?

DM: I absolutely had to do that. I have three daughters, and I was constantly handling what was in front of me, while still looking around for other opportunities. When my daughters were young, I had a latency period, after Way of the Peaceful Warrior had gone out of print for a while. There were no coaching jobs, and my writing career seemed to be at a standstill. During those years, I worked as a data entry person and a typist. I painted houses, I went to court reporter school for a while. I was just doing what needed to be done, which was to support my family.

RD: How was your spirit holding up during that time? You've been an Olympic gymnast, a coach, a college professor. Wasn't it hard doing these kind of jobs, with your background?

DM: Let me answer that question this way. During this time, I asked my father, who drove a lunch catering truck to the factories in downtown Los Angeles, “Did you find your job fulfilling? Did it make you happy?” And he looked at me and he said, “It never occurred to me. I never thought about whether it was fulfilling. I was supporting my family. I did what I could.” He was from the Depression generation; he didn't have the luxury of considering whether he was “fulfilled.” That generation didn't think about fulfilling work as we do now, when we look for work that's like a yoga that matches our interest, our destiny, our calling.
In the same way, I didn't think too much about whether I was “fulfilled.” I didn't picture myself doing data entry for the rest of my life, but I had a wife and kids to support, and I had to handle what was in front of me.

RD: At that point, were you planning for a future that would be different?

DM: Not really. I wasn't thinking, “In 10 years, what am I going to do?” Sometime later, I started teaching more publicly. I started making a living doing seminars and workshops, and my finances changed. There was a real turnaround during that period. Meanwhile, I was working on a screenplay, but it was just a loose idea; my thought was, “Maybe someday it might be able to be a movie.” So I worked for almost 10 years, doing draft after draft of the script. Then I found out there was already a script; the people who shot the movie, the director and the producers of the film, never saw my script until two weeks before they were going to shoot the movie.

RD: So they had someone else write the screenplay?

DM: Yes. I wrote the screenplay before I ever optioned it, just to see if I could write a script. I wasn't so vain as to think they were going to keep my precious wording just as it was, but I did want them to capture the spirit of it. I knew that wouldn't be easy, so I wanted to at least show them one vision of how it might be done.

But they did the screenplay without ever actually seeing my script. Then, in the last two weeks before the movie started shooting, the director made some revisions to the script to make it work better, and incorporated about ten pages of my last-minute contribution. That was really a nutty thing to do, but he did it seamlessly. It became a truly collaborative effort.

RD: At one point in the movie, the character Socrates says to you, “You will write and you will teach. You will live an ordinary life. Remain ordinary, and you can be useful to others.” Was that rumbling in the back of your mind during the time when you were doing data entry and painting houses?

DM: Yes it was, and it still is. A few days ago, someone sent me an e-mail that said, “Now that you're so well recognized with your movie and everything, how are you staying ordinary?” And I said “Ordinary doesn't mean invisible or mediocre; it just means recognizing that we're all together.” Golda Mier once said, “Don't be so humble. You're not that great.” I'm not trying to be humble. I'm just an ordinary man. Peaceful Warrior is about all of us. It's about an average guy who goes through this adventure; that kind of adventure or discovery is accessible to everyone.

RD: What about the part where he says, “You will write and you will teach?”

DM: When I was doing data entry and painting houses, I did have it in my mind that I was a writer and a teacher. I've always seen myself as a teacher. I realized a long time ago that no matter how much I improved myself, only one person benefited. I've been moved to share what I've learned with other people, in ways that might make a positive difference. I felt that calling when I was in college. I went to the YMCA and volunteered to talk there, to teach young kids. Then I was a coach at Stanford. Then I was a college professor, so I got to teach more creatively and make up my own courses, including one called, “Way of the Peaceful Warrior.”

I was always teaching. But after that period, when the bottom fell out of my career, I had what I call my latency period, where I was just doing whatever I could. You asked if I was depressed or discouraged; yes, in some ways, I suppose I was. But I had amusements and the joys of helping to raise my kids, so life was still good. Gradually, I started personal coaching; in those days, there were very few personal fitness coaches. I was finally getting back on track in terms of that calling to teach, but it was only when I met another teacher, another mentor, who was so influential to my life.

From the time I met the old man I called “Socrates” at a gas station, I've met a few other mentors who have deeply influenced my life. In the book and movie, Socrates became the spokesperson, the archetypal teacher expressing the wisdom I've gained from other mentors and from my own life experiences. Rather than say, “This person said this and that teacher said that,” it made more sense to have it come from an everyday source—like an old gas station attendant.

RD: How literal, how true-to-life, were the situations depicted in the movie?

DM: The movie is based on elements from the book, which is based upon elements from my life, so there are many adaptations along the way. But some very accurate material survived all those adaptations, so there are a number of true-to-life events from my life that capture the central message. There's already enough illusion and magical thinking in spirituality and the new age, so I never had the impulse to add to the confusion. I've been quite forthcoming, ever since I wrote the book, that it's a blend of fact and fiction. I changed chronological occurrances, but the spirit of the message is true.

RD: But when I read the book and I get to a particular scene, I wonder “Well, did this really happened, or is Dan making this up?” There are a number of magical or implausible events in the book, like Socrates jumping up onto the roof. The story suggests that you needed those events in order to take this guy seriously.

DM: That's right. He needed to get my attention in a dramatic way, in order for me to believe he really had something to teach me. I wasn't open as a young man; I wasn't open to recognizing some truths or wisdom he might speak. So he got my attention by jumping on the roof. It's funny: the most common question I ever got when the book was written was, “Could the old man really jump up on rooftops?” as if somehow the value of the book depended on that. The answer has always been “No.” Did he grab me by the head and send me off on mystical journeys? Well, no. Maybe that's happened to some people, but not to me.

The magical elements from the book are largely fictional, but one central tenet of my teaching is that this moment is magical. If you're paying attention, this moment is magical. You don't need extraordinary, you don't need UFOs or angels descending, to make life less boring. Life is amazing! Absolutely incredible! To see the magic in the ordinary is what I'm looking for, not to escape the ordinary into some other realm, as if that represents a better life. It's right here, in front of us. How much more amazing can it get?

There's an old proverb that says, “There's God, then there's not paying attention.” Most of us aren't paying attention. Most of us are preoccupied, not in the moment, subliminally muttering to ourselves, “What am I going to do about my relationship? About my kids? About my finances? About my health?” We have these low-level problems all the time, which capture our attention, so we don't notice the beauty, the spirit around us, the magic that's there all the time.

There's no lack of God or spirit or beauty or inspiration, whatever we want to call it. It's always here, but we don't always notice it. When we do see it, then we don't need to look for the fascination, the magical, the “woo-woo.” We need those fascinations because we spend most of our time looking at the contents of our mind, which is like watching an all-day plane crash. We don't look through the eyes of a child. We don't look around the way children do; we don't say, “Wow, look at this bug! Look at that rock on the ground! You can pick it up! You can look at it!”

RD: So what you're saying is that we spend so much time in our minds, worrying and thinking about what's in the future, that we miss the now. But sometimes, what's here and now may seem a little boring.

DM: “Boring” is when our attention is preoccupied with passing thoughts, and time seems to pass by slowly. Fun is the opposite of boredom. Fun is when we're not paying attention to the stream of thought, and time seems to pass quickly. When someone says, “That was a fun time,” what they mean is, “That pulled me right out of my head.” It was a fun movie; it was a fun experience; rock climbing is fun; sky diving is fun; we're not worrying about bills or thinking about dinner while we're doing it.

Little kids don't get bored. It's only when they hit a certain age, when their minds start getting busy, that they get bored. They're thinking, and it may not be pleasant thoughts. That's why the teenage years are so challenging. That's why young people like to blast music loud, so they literally can't think.

RD: I remember noticing that the only time when I was really contented when I was a teenager was when I was playing my bass guitar in a band. The rest of the time I was distressed and in self-doubt. I thought there was something horribly wrong with me that I had to fix.

DM: Like most teenagers do. So you can relate directly to that feeling, of being out of your head and completely in the moment.

RD: A number of books, among them one by Paramahansa Yogananda and one by Ram Dass, influenced me greatly at that time, in part because of the magical elements they contained. Those magical elements seem to jolt us out of our ordinary reality, almost shattering the illusion. Do you think that sort of extraordinary, shattering experience is necessary for “waking up?” Or do you think people can achieve a sort of enlightenment more gradually?

DM: Good question. Those magical elements add a certain spice. The problem is, people become convinced that they are associated with true spiritual awakening. They become evidence of spiritual progress, and people feel like they're falling short if they're not having a groundbreaking, reality-shattering experience. Then there are some people who, at the drop of a hat, will have profound spiritual experiences and visions, and describe them ecstatically to everyone.

To me, love and kindness are the hallmarks. To me, you don't get much more spiritual than the Dali Lama. For all his celebrity, he laughs, he has a great sense of humor, he focuses on each person he's with. I believe he sees the Buddha in everyone. And from what I've seen of his behavior, he doesn't do magic. But then there are hundreds of thousands who follow gurus who can apparently manifest ash with their finger; that ability somehow seems to represent spiritual progress. That's the only problem I have with magic and confusing it with spirituality which, to me, is an open heart, loving kindness and a high level of awareness.

This world exists on two levels: the conventional level and the transcendental level. The Western approach to happiness tends to be about the conventional reality; about mastering the body, about having a good car and money in the bank and a nice home, about a high-status job and achievement and success; it's about winning. Other people go for the Eastern solution, which is detachment from the things of the world: detachment from the body, from financial status and ego.
Here's what's interesting: in the West, people lack insight within themselves, so they may have financial success, but they are unhappy. In the East, people find value in their internal experiences, but their worldly lives are falling apart. I think we need to take the best of both worlds, what I call the way of the peaceful warrior—an approach to living with a peaceful heart and a warrior spirit that combines the best of East and West. It's about the left brain and the right brain working together; it's about a balance between faith and reason, science and mysticism, the receptive and the assertive.

The conventional and transcendental realities have different truths. For example, a spider is a blood-thirsty, vicious, merciless killer, from the viewpoint of a fly. But it's equally true to say spiders are fragile, harmless little web-spinners who run like crazy when they see us because they're afraid of us. Both of these things are true. In the same way, we have all these controversies. For example, are we one or are we separate? Both, on different levels. Conventionally speaking, we're not one—we're separate. I bang my toe against the door, it doesn't hurt you. But from a transcendental viewpoint, who we really are—pure awareness—of course, we couldn't be anything but one.

RD: In most of the spiritual traditions and teachings I've encountered, there is a tradition—they came from somewhere. Where did Socrates' wisdom come from?

DM: I'll answer that in two ways. First of all, I wrote a book called The Journeys of Socrates (HarperSanFrancisco, 2005). It's my most recent book, which tells the life story of the old man. People have asked me over the years about Socrates: was he married? Did he have children? Who are his teachers? Where did he come from? How did he learn what he did? How did he become a master of the martial arts? It took me four years to write the book, full time, and it's the best writing I've ever done.

RD: Is it inspired by his life? Or is it a biography of his life?

DM: It's inspired by his life. Both of my books, Way of the Peaceful Warrior and Journeys of Socrates, say “Fiction” on the back. I think that's the simplest thing to do. But there are some surprising elements in it. The book reveals that his background was mixed; his mother was Jewish, his father was a Cossack. That started his identity crisis very young. His mother had to convert in order to marry, then she died giving birth. He was exposed to many traditions. I am the same; I am eclectic in terms of religious traditions, and I am a member of none.

RD: So you've never settled into one tradition?

DM: No, and it wasn't my destiny to do that. It is for some, and they learn a great deal by going in depth in one tradition. That's true of the martial arts as well. I don't identify with one particular art. I've been exposed to many of them, and I appreciate the breadth and the wealth of the martial arts in general. That has been my calling, and it was very clear to me since I was young.

RD: And this was true for Socrates as well?

DM: Yes.

RD: What was his real name?

DM: Sergei Ivanov. He was Russian, though he never had a Russian accent when I met him. He was influenced by both Western and Eastern esoteric traditions, but primarily Eastern; remember, Russia's a mix of both. The story is really about how a boy became a man, why a man became a formidable warrior, and how a warrior found peace that helps break the cycle of retribution we see in the world today. There's a definite relevancy in the book.

RD: Did he have other students in Berkeley?

DM: No, not in the same way. I'm sure he offered what he could if someone was interested, but in terms of any kind of real relationship, no. I'd suggest reading the book and then going to the appendix at the end called “Revelations from the years that followed.” I don't want to be mysterious, but I don't want to give anything away for people who haven't read the book and want to.

RD: What's happening now with The Journeys of Socrates and other books you're working on?

DM: I have two more new books coming out. The first, to be released in December, is called Wisdom of the Peaceful Warrior. In the book, I take excerpts from Way of the Peaceful Warrior that people have asked me about over the years, and directly elaborate on them. After that, next year sometime, I'll be doing a book called My Search for Spirit, where I'm going to reveal in detail the true story—no fiction mixed in—of the four rather unusual mentors that have most influenced my life and work.
But the last couple of years have really been a wrapping up of the original book, with The Wisdom of the Peaceful Warrior. With that book, I finally get to explain and clarify all the points in the book. I might end up doing some sequels to Journeys. It will almost certainly be made into a movie; it's screaming “movie” all over it. But before it does, I'd rather focus on the sequel to Way of the Peaceful Warrior, because the movie covers only two-thirds of the book.

RD: Near the end of the book, you describe an experience with Socrates in a cave near a mountaintop. It sounds to me like other descriptions I've read of the false identity falling away and seeing clearly one's true identity, which is called various things, including “enlightenment.” Is that how you think of it? You achieved enlightenment?

DM: I think of it as a transition point, a kind of breakthrough or death of the ego, though that sounds overly dramatic to me, because I don't think the ego needs to die. We simply need to transcend it. I don't think we're here to get rid of the ego; it's our personality level. How boring, to get rid of our personalities. I think we're here to see through it and realize we're not limited just to that identity.

In the Hunan tradition, they say we are three selves. There's the conscious self, which is our sense of identity, our ego, our personal history, our conscious mind; it's here to learn and adapt to this lifetime. We go to school, we learn about the world. It's all practical information. Then we have the higher self that's part of who we are, our larger self. And we also have this subconscious self, our body wisdom. When we learn to think with the whole body, and we make a conscious integration with both our conscious self and higher self, we start to realize who we are wholly, and the only part of us that dies is the part that is not needed anymore. But we tend to over-identify with the conscious self, and we forget we're something more. I did have an experience like that, but it wasn't quite as dramatic or scenically enhanced—in the Sierra Mountains with Socrates—as the story I told in my book.

RD: Where did it really happen?

DM: It actually happened in very mundane circumstances, in my home in Berkeley, California, when I was a senior in college. I was with a couple of other people, and I went through a lot of fear at the time. It was actually depicted quite cleverly in the movie, up in the clock tower when he's holding onto his other self. I actually got a lot more out of the movie the second time. I've seen it numerous times, but each time, I notice different things. You'll be surprised if you see it a second time, especially if you see it with a big audience.

RD: I'll probably watch it again on my little TV before I see it in a theatre, because it hasn't come here yet.

DM: That's right; it's at the end of June. One never knows how a movie like this is going to do. All the money that's spent on focus groups and test screenings and everything, all that initial input, and no one really knows until that first weekend, when they see what decisions everyone made about what to do that weekend. And to stay in the theaters, a movie has to have pretty darn good interest. I really admire the producers for being willing to take a chance on this story. It's different from the typical Hollywood film. It's a positive film with a message, instead of just fluff.

RD: Are you aware of the other films in this genre that are being distributed now?

DM: I actually have a lot to say about that. I don't know if you want to hear it.

RD: I do. We'll be reviewing films like “Conversations with God” and “Apocalypto,” in upcoming issues. So I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this new genre.

DM: Well, I've given it some thought, and here's my take. Over the years, there have been many successful, mainstream films that have contained metaphysical or spiritual elements. Some that come to mind: “The Natural,” “Field of Dreams,” “Phenomenon,” “Ghost,” “What Dreams May Come” and my personal favorite, “Groundhog Day.” But they weren't heavy on message. You learn something from it, a simple lesson about life. But they are not heavy-message films. Then there are the overtly spiritual, metaphysical, Eastern or otherwise alternative films, like the ones that go straight to DVD, that are distributed through the Spiritual Cinema Circle or played in Unity Churches or other alternative venues.

And then there was “What the Bleep?” That was a breakthrough film, because it was one of those movies you'd think would just be seen among the converted. But it was well done and well marketed enough that it broke through and played in some mainstream theatres, and really got some recognition. It was really one of the first. I hope “Peaceful Warrior” is another of the first. It will be playing across the country, if it has a good reception. And it will create a standard, saying you can have a film that is cinema with substance, in contrast to movies where people are shooting people for no reason. Or in contrast to light, frivolous comedies that you can forget about two minutes after you walk out of the theatre.

“Peaceful Warrior” is one of those movies that has nourishment or substance, and it may be one of the first in a real genre. It's likely to do better than “What the Bleep?” only because it contains a strong story. And, like the book, it delivered a message.

RD: It seems like there are a lot of message-heavy films lately; it's almost an explosion.

DM: Yes, and there will be more. The producers of “Peaceful Warrior” really keep their ears to the ground and their eyes wide open. They're aware of these films, and have been for quite some time. But they also know some of these films aren't strong enough to make it into mainstream distribution and widespread recognition.

“Peaceful Warrior” might. I think it's very well done. I think people might actually like it more over time, and they won't forget it soon. But any film that's heavy in message has a target on its back for any critic who cares to be ungenerous and take pot shots. So it's a risk. Sam Goldwyn said, “If you want to send a message, use Western Union.” He thought movies had to be frivolous and fun, and not get too heavy, that people don't like to be taught. But maybe the public is ready for a movie that has substance and a message. I think Nick Nolte, who plays Socrates, conveyed it and Scott Mechlowicz, who plays my role, does such a beautiful job in saying the lines that they don't sound preachy at all. They're just part of the narrative.

RD: I agree.

DM: It's been compared to “The Karate Kid,” because it involves a mentor/student. But, of course, “Peaceful Warrior” was written four years before “The Karate Kid” ever came out. That mentor/student relationship has been around for some time. Look at Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker, or Yoda and Luke Skywalker. There's Gandalf and Frodo, Don Juan and Carlos Castaneda. The mentor/student relationship is still a very effective means, if it's done well, to convey useful reminders to people.

RD: You teach and travel widely, and have for some time. How do you see movie-goers responding to this wave of new, meaningful films?

DM: I can actually answer that by reading you a couple of email comments I received in the last few days. Esther Fink from Brooklyn and also Los Angeles said, “Dear Dan Millman, I was at the L.A. screening of your movie, and thank you for turning your book into a movie. Now there is a chance for world peace!” Those are her words, not mine. She also says, “This was such an inspiring and spiritual experience. I cannot wait to see it again with my daughter, 15 years old. I think I finally have a shot at helping her experience something special that she cannot get at the mall.” Another letter says, “Dan, The movie was excellent... These days it is very difficult to find a movie that leaves you inspired instead of disappointed.” That, I think, was key. People are hungry to make—and view—films that leave us inspired instead of disappointed.

I don't know what a spiritual film is. I can't define it. I was once writing an article on what makes good spiritual literature for children. And I asked my young daughter, Sierra, “What books do you consider spiritual?” And she named a list. I don't remember all of them, but I do remember they were books like Diary of a German Soldier, or Diary of Anne Frank. None of them had metaphysical elements, but they were inspiring and spiritual to her. I think any film or book that inspires and uplifts us, that reminds us of life's bigger picture and the hero we have within us, is spiritual, whether or not it contains anything about angels, ghosts, life after death, out-of-body travel, or any other metaphysical themes. It's not the subject matter necessarily.

RD: Earlier in the interview, you talked about the experience of feeling as if you had “woken up.” Are you awake now? Did you remain awake, or do you find yourself with that ego again, the same struggles that you remembered before?

DM: I will never have quite the same relationship to the ego as I did when I was younger. I don't take this Dan Millman personality character that seriously. I have a sense of humor about the whole thing. But I don't see enlightenment as the switching on of a light that stays on forever until the bulb burns out. I see it more like a dimmer switch being turned up or turned down, sometimes more quickly and sometimes more slowly. I see life as a series of moments. So now, I bring more awake moments into life than I did in the past.

It's just too easy to claim some kind of enlightenment, and role play it. But I don't want to be a poseur. I can tell you this: I am no longer seeking enlightenment. It doesn't mean I don't have a purpose. It doesn't mean I don't have practical goals in life. I still enjoy writing. It is difficult sometimes, but I enjoy having to write more books and continuing to share as best I can while I'm able. But I'm not seeking anymore in the sense of having a dilemma, where I have to get enlightened or I'll be miserable or incomplete. Maybe that's the key to something.

RD: So you have frustrating days and happier days and less happier days?

DM: Never. I never have happy days or frustrating days. I just have happy and frustrating moments. My day is made up of many moments. Some are happy and some are sad and some are anxious and some are calm. Life is a series of moments, and it changes like the weather. That's not a bad place to end, is it?